sigh

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 02/04/2015 at 17:23 • Filed to: None

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Chatting with someone on Car and Driver who feels that a car company should never release a car unless the company is sure it will be defect free forever. Um, no...that's not how engineering works.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2015 at 17:27

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Sounds like his momma shouldn't have released him, 'cause he's definitely not defect free. Should've kept him in development or released him only to a special testing environment.

ttyymmnn > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2015 at 17:28

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Boy, wouldn't that be nice.

ranwhenparked > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2015 at 17:28

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So, in other words, no company, in any industry, should ever release any new products, ever, under any circumstances, for any reason. Got it.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2015 at 17:30

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/Looks at design life equations

/Looks back at computer screen

/Grabs all engineering text books

/Throws them into garbage and lights it on fire

Nope, I'm afraid he's right.

HammerheadFistpunch > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 02/04/2015 at 17:31

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I'm probably being overly harsh, but he is complaining that the ZF9hp in the cherokee should have never been released because they are on their 3rd software fix with a whopping 126 reported complaints for tens of thousands of copies of a brand new and untested transmission design.

Its the same way I feel every recall article "why can't they build reliable cars!?"

a. They build lots of cars, with lots of systems through lots of venders...its a lot to potentially go wrong and statistically speaking....it will for some people.

b. what, they didn't build unreliable cars in the past? at least the manufactures are owning up to it these days. No good deed goes unpunished I guess.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2015 at 17:37

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I think that's actually significantly better than normal for a Chrysler product and transmissions. Are we sure that the software fixes aren't to bring failure rates back up to normal?

HammerheadFistpunch > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 02/04/2015 at 17:40

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HA! I actually just did the math, its a .0000754% NHTSA complaint to US production rate. pretty damn great. Granted its a serious issue they need to correct, but cmon people...this is not the big deal you want it to be.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2015 at 17:48

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I have to admit I don't understand why Chrysler transmissions (particularly in the minivans) were so pernicious for so long, but I can only assume it's some convoluted interaction of friction materials, manufacturing tolerances, dealer service, factory fluid fill grade, designed shift behavior, or all of the above, because it wasn't only something that cropped up in a couple boxes - it was all over the map. Including, correct me if I'm wrong, some of the Benz-derived ones. The only thing I know is that with the minivans, swapping fluid at regular intervals and running additives appears to help massively, so they may "run dirty" somewhat due to several of those possibilities.

RallyWrench > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2015 at 17:56

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It's how engineers would like it to work, but accountants keep interfering.

HammerheadFistpunch > RallyWrench 02/04/2015 at 18:02

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we like to blame accountants but the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry...and all that. Sometimes is the production schedule that is the bad guy, sometimes its budget, sometimes its just a future lesson learned.

RallyWrench > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2015 at 18:08

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Hey, I'm just trying to give you an easy out. ;) For that other guy, welcome to Earth, where machines break.

BigBlock440 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 02/04/2015 at 18:44

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From what I read, a lot of problems came from people not using ATF+3 or 4. I'm not a specialist, but I've always used it and have yet to see a transmission failure, even on the vehicles pushing 200k. From my experience, it seems plausible that quite a few people would put the wrong stuff in, especially since not everywhere carries it and most places I asked, the monkey behind the counter said some other type was fine to use. There could be other issues (I've never owned a minivan), but that's just what I read.

1.21 JIGGA WATTS!!! > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 02/05/2015 at 07:32

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/Gets asked why product design is taking so long

/Replies "working out all the kinks so customers don't hate us"

/Get lectured on time management

/Get lectured on exorbitant costs in design

/Puts product into production

/Customers gets angry

/Engineer gets blamed

/Engineer starts drinking heavily

Pretty much. If an engineer had his way, the cost would be the cost (no stupid gimmicks) and we would release it when we are good and goddamn ready to, so we only have minor issues and the occasional long life issue..

1.21 JIGGA WATTS!!! > RallyWrench 02/05/2015 at 07:36

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For no reason other than your comment made me think of it

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > BigBlock440 02/05/2015 at 09:13

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The minivan my grandmother had first was a '94, IIRC - it had never had anything foreign put in it, and was obtained as a CPO with coverage because we *knew* the transmission was suspect, and ended up having to replace it almost immediately. After doing that, we got in a pattern of extremely neurotic over-service with regular fluid and filter swaps and with additives, and that trans was still in it when she sold it, I think. For a while the minivans were almost like clockwork on factory fill failure of the original trans. A friend of my dad's had another of the gen and I think went through the exact same thing... plus some extra issues from having the Mitsubishi engine. That friend was a professional mechanic, and was the one who got us in the habit of psychotic care after his own experiences with failures.

My grandmother got another minivan much later (2000s), and we undertook the same practices again - another family member didn't, and I think they've had a Regularly Scheduled Failure.

There was also a Sebring convertible that we were in charge of secondary care for to a degree, and it developed leaks and bad shifting about the same time as one another, without that many miles (but a good bit of age). Not atypical. I've also heard some horror stories about the PT/Neon autos, I think, and even some for the earlier Chargers. Some of those may be exaggerated, but the bottom line is that the minivan transmissions are or were among the most reliably unreliable known to man. Kind of like a 700R4, slightly more so.